Germany and US Agree to Send Tanks to Ukraine Despite Concern of War Escalation

After weeks of strain from worldwide allies, Germany has introduced it should ship 14 German-made Leopard 2 battle tanks to Ukraine and permit different NATO nations to ship extra German tanks to assist Kyiv in its battle towards Russia. The announcement got here after america agreed to additionally ship a cargo of M1 Abrams tanks to Ukraine. For extra, we communicate with lawmaker Sevim Dağdelen, a member of the Left Get together within the German parliament who says the vast majority of the German public desires extra diplomatic efforts to finish the battle. “It considerations me lots that many so-called progressives in america are supporting this line by the Biden administration to push Germany an increasing number of into this proxy struggle,” says Dağdelen.


It is a rush transcript. Copy is probably not in its closing kind.

AMY GOODMAN: Germany has formally introduced it should ship 14 German-made Leopard 2 battle tanks to Ukraine and permit different NATO allies to ship extra German tanks to assist Kyiv in its battle towards Russia. Germany made the announcement after america reportedly agreed to additionally ship 30 M1 Abrams tanks to Ukraine. In an announcement, German Chancellor Olaf Scholz mentioned, quote, “This resolution follows our well-known line of supporting Ukraine to the very best of our means. We’re performing in a intently coordinated method internationally,” he mentioned. Germany can even present coaching and ammunition for the tanks.

Scholz had confronted intense strain in current weeks from Poland, america and different European nations to approve the tanks, regardless of concern by many in Germany that it may result in an escalation of the struggle in Ukraine and retaliation by Russia. The pinnacle of the Left Get together in Germany’s parliament warned the transfer, quote, “probably takes us nearer to a Third World Struggle than within the path of peace in Europe.”

Supporters of the choice embrace NATO Secretary Common Jens Stoltenberg, who has repeatedly urged NATO members to hurry up deliveries of heavy weapons to Ukraine.

JENS STOLTENBERG: The one method to lasting peace is to make it clear to Putin that he is not going to win on the battlefield. Due to this fact, we should present heavier and extra superior techniques in order that Ukrainian forces are capable of repel the Russian forces, not solely to outlive, however to win, take again territory and prevail as a sovereign impartial state in Europe.

AMY GOODMAN: We’re joined now by a member of Germany’s parliament, Sevim Dağdelen, a member of the opposition Left Get together, elected to the German parliament in 2005 and a member of the International Affairs Committee. She’s additionally a member of the NATO Parliamentary Meeting. She’s becoming a member of us from Havana, Cuba, the place she’s visiting as a part of a delegation organized by the Progressive Worldwide.

Welcome to Democracy Now! It’s nice to have you ever with us. For folks in america, they could notably not perceive what this controversy is about, for some folks. Are you able to speak about what the choice means at the moment, the announcement, to ship these Leopard tanks to Ukraine but additionally permit different nations, like Poland, who’ve these tanks, and in Scandinavia, to have the ability to ship them to [Ukraine], as nicely, getting them initially from Germany?

SEVIM DAĞDELEN: Properly, hey, Amy. And thanks for having me.

This resolution, sending battle tanks to Ukraine from Germany and giving the choice that Poland and others can ship Leopard 2 German tanks to Ukraine, is a historic mistaken resolution. And it comes solely due to the strain, the heavy strain, of america Biden administration, we have now to say. A number of months in the past, Chancellor Scholz, within the German parliament, within the International Affairs Committee, mentioned it’s a crimson line. It’s a line of escalation, sending battle tanks from Germany to Ukraine. That might cross a crimson line. However the strain now was too heavy, too robust from the Biden administration to ship Germany within the frontline of this struggle. And it was the strain of the coalition companions, the Greens and the liberals — they’re truly the neocons on this coalition in Germany. They formally mentioned that they’d breach the coalition if these battle tanks, Leopard 2, wouldn’t be despatched by Chancellor Scholz to Ukraine. That was the issue.

And we at the moment are in a really unhealthy scenario, as a result of I believe it’s a mistaken resolution, historic mistaken resolution, as a result of it’s towards the vast majority of the inhabitants in Germany. In line with new polls within the final — within the current days, the bulk in Germany is towards sending battle tanks to Ukraine. The bulk is in favor for extra diplomacy, for a negotiated peace in Ukraine.

And the opposite factor is, the thirty first of January would be the anniversary, the eightieth anniversary, of the battle in Stalingrad. And each household in Russia misplaced family members on this battle in Stalingrad. And also you don’t have to be a prophet to know that sending German tanks towards Russia on this proxy struggle of america may have a far more mobilization within the Russian society on this struggle. So, which means you’ve got the other influence what you need truly inside Russia in direction of this struggle. And because of this it’s traditionally so mistaken to ship battle tanks.

JUAN GONZÁLEZ: Sevim Dağdelen, I needed to ask you — right here in america, the mass media are much more warlike than the federal government, consistently urgent the Biden administration to supply extra assist and more and more deadly assist to Ukraine. I’m questioning: What’s the scenario in Germany when it comes to the media’s influence in your authorities leaders? How are they portraying or depicting the necessity for extra armaments for Ukraine?

SEVIM DAĞDELEN: Properly, , we have now a extremely extraordinarily warmongering ambiance in Germany, attributable to the media, the mainstream media, as nicely. And it was fascinating. I used to be, in March or in April final 12 months, in america, in Washington, D.C., and representatives of the State Division, of the Pentagon and the Nationwide Safety Council, all of them mentioned that the German media made such an ideal work in Germany to push the German new authorities for the Zeitenwende, for 100 billion euro for militarization and sending weapons and arms to Ukraine. And I believe, , it have to be one thing mistaken if representatives of a 3rd state, like in america, are saying the German press is working nicely.

The issue is, the German mainstream press is a lot concerned, included inside the Atlantic Council, transatlantic assume tanks and so forth. So, many editors, primarily the primary editors, or chief editors, are corporated in these transatlantic assume tanks. And that’s the issue. We’ve the coverage of curiosity of america. And I imagine it’s not even the curiosity of the inhabitants of the folks in america. It’s the curiosity of an elite, of neocons in america, who’re having, clearly — clearly — having the place that Europe is like Latin America for america within the ’70s, and a continent the place you are able to do what you like is what you please. And that’s actually an issue.

And clearly, it’s a good enterprise to have a struggle in Europe for the U.S. fracking trade and for the military-industrial advanced in america. And that is additionally a concrete instance with sending tanks to Ukraine. Sending tanks from Germany and the German tanks, the Leopard 2, can be within the curiosity of america military-industrial advanced, as a result of their thesis, in the event that they get misplaced, the Leopard 2 tanks, the trendy — probably the most trendy weapon system in Europe, we do have, in tanks system, then they’ll provide their very own tanks, as a result of, you see, the opposite factor is, Scholz failed — Amy Goodman simply introduced Scholz failed in his demand in direction of america to ship additionally tanks, battle tanks, to Ukraine, as a result of, based on The Washington Put up, it will possibly take a number of years, as much as a number of years, to ship the U.S. tanks.

In order that they’re pushing us, the Germans, into this fireplace, into the frontline of this fireplace, particularly concerning their very own pursuits, supplying their very own military-industrial merchandise, and to have the scenario that Germany and Russia, for good, haven’t any relations in any respect. I imply, that was prior to now. Once you see the books of Brzezinski and so forth, of many assume tankers in america, it was at all times an purpose by america elites to destroy the connection between Germany and Russia. And that is my concern, as a result of yesterday, final night time, already the Inexperienced overseas minister in Germany, Annalena Baerbock, began to say, formally, we’re preventing a struggle towards Russia, she says. Meaning we’re in a struggle already towards Russia. And that considerations me lots. And it considerations me lots additionally that many so-called progressives in america are supporting this line by the Biden administration to push Germany an increasing number of into this proxy struggle and, yeah, taking the danger that it will possibly have an extension to the Third World Struggle.

JUAN GONZÁLEZ: And I needed —

SEVIM DAĞDELEN: And the issue is —

JUAN GONZÁLEZ: You talked about —

SEVIM DAĞDELEN: — having Third World Struggle in a continent like Europe is not going to have an effect on you in america, 8,000 kilometers away from Europe. It can have an effect on our folks in Europe.

JUAN GONZÁLEZ: You talked about additionally the fracking trade on this proxy struggle. Most People are usually not conscious of the big earnings which can be being made by U.S. pure fuel firms on account of this struggle, and the influence it’s having on the power wants of Europe. Might you speak about what’s taking place in Germany when it comes to fuel costs and the requirements for heating there?

SEVIM DAĞDELEN: Properly, we have now the — based on the brand new publications by a number of financial institutes in Germany, we have now an actual lack of wages of about 5%. So, it’s a concrete 4.7%. It’s the most important loss in actual wages in — the most important loss within the historical past of the Federal Republic of Germany since 1945. Folks can not afford to pay their rents, to pay the fuel costs, the power costs, the petrol. They usually can’t afford even to pay for meals. That’s the issue. Two million folks, the primary time in historical past in Germany final 12 months, they needed to go to the general public meals providers to get meals, and this in one of the crucial financial highly effective nations on this planet. So, we have now a extremely loss within the majority of the inhabitants.

And on the opposite aspect, we have now an enormous revenue on the aspect of the businesses, greater than 100 billion revenue made by the trade of power and oil firms and all the large firms, as nicely. And the fracking trade from the U.S. is a giant profiteer of this disaster, as nicely, of the sanctions. You understand, it’s all attributable to the sanctions towards Russia, these power sanctions. And it doesn’t hurt Russia. The Russian Gazprom agency, the corporate, made within the first half of 2022 greater than 40 billion simply revenue. Simply profiting. And the identical on the finish of the 12 months. So they’re making the most of this struggle. The one one who’s struggling is the inhabitants in Europe, due to the sanctions, as a result of the sanctions are turning into a cost-effective struggle towards our personal inhabitants.

And the fracking trade from america, they’re sending now tanks of their soiled fuel from america, which is towards the local weather, as nicely. And the factor is, one tank, they’ll get revenue as much as 200 million or 300 million euro. There isn’t any restrict in any respect, as a result of simply on the best way from america to Europe, the costs can rise. So, they’re making quite a lot of revenue, as a result of the necessity for Germany for this fuel is roughly that you’d want greater than 1,100 tanks per 12 months. And I can’t see that we will afford this to pay to america, compared to a budget and fewer soiled fuel from Russia.

AMY GOODMAN: Sevim Dağdelen —

SEVIM DAĞDELEN: That’s a extremely big downside for the German inhabitants.

AMY GOODMAN: I wish to ask you about Germany’s new Protection Minister Boris Pistorius’s feedback simply earlier than we went to air. That is what he mentioned.

BORIS PISTORIUS: [translated] I imagine that this resolution is historic, as a result of it’s being made once more in a coordinated method, as a result of it’s being made in a extremely explosive scenario in Ukraine. And that’s the reason the choice deserves respect. However, after all, it additionally deserves the respect of everybody who is worried that this struggle will proceed on this manner and that we are going to probably endure extra from it in some unspecified time in the future than we wish at the moment. … However one factor is obvious: We is not going to develop into a celebration to the struggle. We are going to make certain of that.

AMY GOODMAN: If you happen to can reply to what the brand new protection minister mentioned, proper? The earlier protection minister, Lambrecht, she was —


AMY GOODMAN: — in the end pressured to resign. And in the event you can speak about this controversy and likewise reply to the division of progressives, from america to Germany, people who say, “Don’t feed the military-industrial advanced,” and people who say, “If Ukraine doesn’t get these heavy weapons, Russia will achieve taking extra land”?

SEVIM DAĞDELEN: Properly, I actually need to warn: All these illusionists, all these people who find themselves fantasizing a few victory towards Russia, they’re underestimating Russia like Napoleon and Hitler did prior to now. And, , it’s a nuclear — probably the most highly effective nuclear energy on this planet. And there’s no method to win a struggle, a standard struggle, towards such a nuclear energy. And that is the damaging a part of this dialogue, that, on the one hand aspect, all of them are saying that President Putin from Russia is insane and he’s loopy and he’s a monster and no matter, they usually’re making an attempt to demonize him, like they did prior to now with Saddam Hussein or Gaddafi or anybody else they needed to place down — and the factor is, they are saying he’s loopy, however, on the opposite aspect, they are saying, “Properly, it’s a bluff. We don’t assume that Putin is so irrational to make use of nuclear weapons.” I imply, come on. We can not significantly debate of utilizing nuclear weapons, as a result of if they are going to be used as soon as, it’s the tip of the human civilization, a minimum of in Europe, perhaps not in america, however in Europe positively. And that makes me actually frightened about it, this debate.

And the opposite factor is, the previous minister, Ministry of Protection in Germany, Christine Lambrecht, she was a lot below strain from the neocons in Germany, the Greens, the liberals and the mass media. They put her quite a lot of below strain to resign, as a result of they needed to exchange her with a extra transatlantic warmongerer than she was for them. She was not sufficient warmongering. And Pistorius was a, surprisingly, resolution made by Chancellor Scholz, however, sadly, he’s disappointing, as nicely, as a result of he’s not performing based on the need of the vast majority of the inhabitants in Germany, that claims extra diplomacy for a negotiated peace fairly than sending battle tanks. He’s now saying, “Properly, we’re sending battle tanks in cooperation with our allies.”

And I’ve to say, very frankly, america has no allies. The US is simply occupied with their very own pursuits, and they’re simply occupied with vessels. And that’s the purpose. Poland and so forth, all the opposite nations who had been pushing Germany and Chancellor Scholz to say sure to the Leopard 2 tanks, they’re additionally doing precisely that what america need from them. That’s the factor. The US is pushing them into the entrance and saying them, “Please do that,” after which they’re placing the strain and creating an environment of strain to the German authorities, due to the German historical past, two instances. Two world wars began from Germany with the assaults towards Russia or, respectively, Soviet Union. And now we’re sending once more tanks towards Russia, towards Moscow. And our new overseas minister, I imply, she truly says that Pistorius is mistaken, as a result of she truly mentioned final night time, “We’re in a struggle towards Russia.” She mentioned that, actually.

So, which means I’m very involved that this isn’t the final resolution taken by, as a result of sending the Leopard 2 tanks, they don’t seem to be a sport changer. In the long run or within the medium time period, they won’t change something on the bottom in Ukraine, as a result of Russia will react. And the issue is, now the nationalist authorities in Ukraine already demanded from Germany and from the NATO states actually large fight plane techniques, helicopters, Tornadoes, Eurofighters. And that is smart. It’s comprehensible from the purpose of the Ukraine authorities to place NATOmore and extra into this struggle to assist them to outlive. However I do assume that it’s not a army sport changer, sending the tanks, however it will likely be a political sport changer to place NATO states like Germany an increasing number of into this struggle towards Russia. However we do want extra diplomacy to finish this killings, this mindless killings. Whoever desires to ship extra weapons to Ukraine is in favor of extra killings in Ukraine.

AMY GOODMAN: Sevim Dağdelen, we wish to thanks very a lot for being with us, a member of the opposition Left Get together in Germany, Kurdish German member of parliament, additionally a member of the NATO Parliamentary Meeting, chatting with us from Havana, Cuba, the place she is there as a part of a delegation of Progressive Worldwide.

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