When the Nord Stream pipelines carrying pure fuel from Russia to Germany have been broken final September, U.S. officers have been fast to recommend Russia had bombed its personal pipelines. However in line with a brand new report by the legendary investigative journalist Seymour Hersh, it was the U.S. Navy that carried out the sabotage, with assist from Norway. Citing a supply “with direct data of the operational planning,” Hersh writes on his Substack weblog that planning for the mission started in December of 2021. The White Home and the Norwegian authorities have since denied the claims. Hersh joins us for an in-depth interview to debate his report and says the U.S. resolution to bomb the pipelines was meant to lock allies into help for Ukraine at a time when some have been wavering. “The concern was Europe would stroll away from the battle,” he says. Hersh gained a Pulitzer Prize in 1970 for his reporting on the My Lai bloodbath. His reporting on CIA spying on antiwar activists throughout the Vietnam Warfare period helped result in the formation of the Church Committee, which led to main reforms of the intelligence neighborhood, and in 2004, he uncovered the Abu Ghraib prisoner abuse scandal in Iraq.
It is a rush transcript. Copy might not be in its closing type.
AMY GOODMAN: We start at this time’s present with the legendary Pulitzer Prize-winning journalist Seymour Hersh. In 1970, he gained the prize for his reporting for the Dispatch Information Service on the My Lai bloodbath, when the U.S. slaughtered greater than 500 Vietnamese girls, kids and outdated males on March 16, 1968. His reporting in The New York Occasions on CIA spying on antiwar activists throughout the Vietnam Warfare period helped result in the formation of the Church Committee, which led to main reforms of the intelligence neighborhood. In 2004, within the pages of The New Yorker journal, Sy Hersh uncovered the Abu Ghraib prisoner abuse scandal in Iraq.
Effectively, final week he printed one other bombshell report, however this time on his new Substack web page. The piece was headlined “How America Took Out The Nord Stream Pipeline.” It seems at one of many nice mysteries of the previous 12 months: Who was behind the bombing of the Nord Stream pipelines, which have been constructed to hold pure fuel from Russia to Europe? The pipelines have been severely broken final September in a sequence of underwater explosions within the Baltic Sea. In his new piece, Sy Hersh cites an unnamed supply who says the sabotage was carried out by the U.S. Navy, which planted remotely triggered explosives throughout NATO workouts final September. Hersh stories the Biden administration started planning the act of sabotage in December 2021, two months earlier than Russia’s invasion of Ukraine.
On February seventh, 2022, President Biden held a joint information convention with German Chancellor Olaf Scholz, and Biden introduced up the way forward for the Nord Stream pipeline.
PRESIDENT JOE BIDEN: If Russia invades — meaning tanks or troops crossing the border of Ukraine once more — then there can be — there can be now not a Nord Stream 2. We are going to carry an finish to it.
ANDREA SHALAL: How will you — how will you do this precisely, for the reason that venture and management of the venture is inside Germany’s management?
PRESIDENT JOE BIDEN: We are going to — I promise you we will do it.
AMY GOODMAN: “I’ll promise you we’ll be capable to do this.”
Effectively, Sy Hersh stories U.S. Navy divers planted remotely triggered explosives on the pipelines in June whereas NATO was conducting navy workouts within the space. He stories the divers have been all members of the Navy, and never members of an America’s Particular Operations Command, whose covert operations have to be reported to Congress. Then, on September twenty fifth, 2022, a Norwegian surveillance aircraft dropped a sonar buoy, which triggered the C4 explosives that had been positioned on the pipeline. Quickly after the explosion, the USA strongly urged Russia was behind blowing up its personal pipeline. That is nationwide safety adviser Jake Sullivan responding to a query at a White Home press briefing.
REPORTER: In his speech this morning, the president known as the Nord Stream pipeline assaults, quote, “a deliberate act of sabotage.” And he stated, “Now the Russians are pumping out [mis]info and lies” about it. Ought to we take that to imply that the U.S. now believes that Russia was probably chargeable for this act of sabotage?
JAKE SULLIVAN: Effectively, first, Russia has carried out what it regularly does when it’s chargeable for one thing, which is make accusations that it was actually another person who did it. We’ve seen this repeatedly over time. However the president was additionally clear at this time that there’s extra work to do on the investigation earlier than the USA authorities is ready to make an attribution on this case.
AMY GOODMAN: Within the following months, there have been few public disclosures concerning the pipeline explosion. In December, The New York Occasions reported Russia had begun costly repairs on the pipelines, a transfer which has raised questions on Western claims that Russia had bombed its personal pipelines. In the meantime, some Biden officers have publicly praised the truth that the pipeline was blown up. That is Underneath Secretary of State for Political Affairs Victoria Nuland talking throughout a latest Senate International Relations Committee listening to.
VICTORIA NULAND: I’m, and I believe the administration is, very gratified to know that Nord Stream 2 is now, as you prefer to say, a hunk of metallic on the backside of the ocean.
AMY GOODMAN: We’re joined now by Pulitzer Prize-winning journalist Seymour Hersh to speak extra about his new piece, “How America Took Out The Nord Stream Pipeline.” Whereas the White Home has described Hersh’s reporting as, quote, “full fiction,” calls are rising for an unbiased probe into the explosion.
Sy Hersh, welcome again to Democracy Now! For those who can flesh out what it’s you present in your report and what first tipped you off, albeit there have been lots of public feedback, together with the Polish authorities proper after the bombing saying, “Thanks, America”? Lay it out for us, Sy.
SEYMOUR HERSH: Effectively, to start with, I believe the reporting actually may be described as a buddy of mine did: What I did was actually deconstruct the plain. I imply, you need to hear what the president stated. However, in fact, there have been secret plans, that I’m writing about, and so they embody — there was a committee arrange. Jake Sullivan was immediately concerned. He was the nationwide safety adviser, nonetheless is. They arrange a workforce to have a look at choices about the right way to put stress on the Russian authorities to again off.
I’m getting a bounce in my ear, so that is comical. Are you able to hear me?
AMY GOODMAN: We hear you completely. We don’t hear the bounce, Sy.
SEYMOUR HERSH: Oh, OK, that’s nice. I hear it, although.
Anyway, and so, there was a — I’m simply writing about inside baseball stuff. It’s the conventional belongings you do. They arrange a committee to think about choices. Russia was clearly going to go. The risk the president had but to make had not been made, and that is December, earlier than New Yr’s Day, of the 12 months earlier than, 2021. And the query contained in the committee, and it included the same old — CIA, NSA, Treasury Division, State Division, you title it — and so they met in a secret workplace constructing within the — throughout the road from the White Home within the Govt Workplace Constructing. The choice was: Would you like us to do one thing kinetic or one thing not kinetic? In different phrases, not kinetic could be extra sanctions, and one thing kinetic could be, you recognize, taking out the pipeline, as had been considered.
And a solution got here fairly shortly. I might guess — Victoria Nuland’s assertion, that you simply talked about, got here truly earlier than the president’s. It got here in late January of final 12 months. And that assertion got here — at the moment, I believe, the committee concerned — lots of subtle individuals within the intelligence and operation neighborhood concluded you may do it, and the White Home was instructed it was doable. I believe that led to the feedback, which actually, in fact, made the individuals on the within go half-crazy, as a result of it was imagined to be fully covert. However at that place, as I wrote, it was merely described as a categorised operation. Not one of the guidelines of reporting to Congress concerned are concerned — have been concerned.
And they also started their planning. They went to Norway, which is a superb ally of ours. Norway was one of many unique signers of the 1949 NATO treaty. I believe 19 nations have been concerned then. And Norway is a superb ally. We’ve spent — I write about this in some element within the article — a whole bunch of thousands and thousands, in all probability extra, nearer to a billion or extra, upgrading amenities. Norway has a 1,400-mile border alongside the Atlantic coast that goes from Oslo, in Europe, all the way in which up north into — it runs into the Russian border above the Arctic Circle. So, we do — we put lots of amenities up north there — synthetic-aperture radar, which prices a fortune, to observe the Russian nuclear websites round and likewise their navy actions round there, up within the different facet of the peninsula, the Kola Peninsula. So, they’re simply our guys. And so they’re additionally nice at doing underwater stuff. And so, that’s what occurred. We did a plan with them. We needed to clear it with Sweden and Denmark. I’ll go away it to them to resolve whether or not that they accepted the reason we have been doing workouts within the Baltic Sea for the hell of it. However thus far I haven’t seen a lot from both of them.
And, you recognize, it’s a tiresome sport to me. So, what occurs is, once I do my story on Substack, I wouldn’t even assume — I’m embarrassed to say it in any case these fantastic years I had at The New York Occasions. I wasn’t even pondering of taking a narrative like this to The New York Occasions. They’ve determined that the Ukraine battle goes to be gained by Ukraine, and that’s what its readers get, and so be it. That’s their name. So, I simply did my reporting.
And the miners got here from a [inaudible] facility in a bit of small city in Florida. And the mining neighborhood within the Navy may be very secret, and so they simply do their enterprise. They don’t discuss. That was good individuals to get. And so they practiced it. And as you stated, there was a serious train each summer season by the sixth Fleet, which — the Americas sixth Fleet out of Italy, which controls — additionally has the operational rights within the Baltic Sea. Baltic Sea is a large place.
The pipelines we’re speaking about, Nord Stream 1, which got here alive in 2011, and Nord Stream 2 was truly carried out, however the Germans, which are able to pump pump, has 750 miles. And so they go straight from Russia, which is loaded with all types of fuel — in Siberia, they’ve huge reserves — immediately into Germany. And I can inform you, Nord Stream 1 was a godsend for the German financial system and Western Europe. They produce a lot fuel at such low costs that the German authorities was truly capable of resell a number of the fuel the Russians have been offering at a revenue, with out Russia objecting.
And so, the German financial system is large. It’s booming. You recognize, the automobiles, we learn about. Germany has the most important chemical firm on the planet, BASF. And everyone is — proper now it’s hell to pay. It’s gotten very chilly there. There’s lots of anger. And anyway, the aim —
JUAN GONZÁLEZ: Sy Hersh —
SEYMOUR HERSH: — with the —
JUAN GONZÁLEZ: Sy, I wished to ask you, when it comes to the shortage of — it at all times appeared to me, when the claims have been that doubtlessly Russia had sabotaged its personal pipeline, that it was ludicrous to assume that that may be so, that they’d make investments a lot cash in pipelines after which bomb them themselves. However I’m within the lack of press consideration for the reason that sabotage occurred, and likewise the shortage of congressional consideration. I believe again to the CIA’s mining of the Managua harbors again within the early Nineteen Eighties underneath the Reagan administration, when the conservative Republican head of the Senate Intelligence Committee, Barry Goldwater, objected and raised considerations that this was a covert operation the place Congress was not notified. After which, in fact, Congress lower off assist to the Contras. Consequently, there was an Worldwide Court docket of Justice ruling towards the USA. However on this case, this sort of sabotage, the media appears to not be in any respect serious about discovering out what occurred right here, as you might have, or, in Congress, there’s nobody in Congress that’s been elevating questions.
SEYMOUR HERSH: You listened to the newscast that we simply heard because the present opened, one horrible occasion after one other. I believe the world has taken a really weird flip. I additionally — you recognize, it doesn’t matter what I believe. There’s no query there’s been a polarization of the press since Trump obtained in. We’re now on two sides — you recognize, proper, left, Democrat, Republican, nevertheless you describe it. For those who watch Fox Information, you don’t watch MSNBC, and so on., and so on. And in the event you learn The New York Occasions, you’re not going to get what the right-winger — you recognize, the conservatives have been after The New York Occasions and Washington Submit for his or her, quote-unquote, “liberal” views. So, we’ve obtained a polarization going.
And right now, we’ve obtained a president, a Democratic president, that has carried out some good things domestically, however I can inform you I’m not understanding the whole dedication to Ukraine. And I’m not understanding what I learn, as a result of, clearly, I’ve entry to lots of people who see issues. I’ve been doing this, Amy, and — I’ve been this, what, writing about covert actions for — am I that outdated? 300 years. Anyway, the underside line is, the tales I’ve been getting concerning the battle, notably starting in fall — and that’s what will get attention-grabbing — have been fairly dire. The Russians, I don’t assume — I believe the top is only a query of time. Proper now it’s a query of what number of extra individuals Zelensky needs to kill of his personal individuals. It’s going to be over.
What occurred is the plan was to place the bomb — and I can’t reply your philosophical query about why Congress isn’t doing something anymore. Congress is just about polarized simply as a lot. And there’s additionally an unlimited persevering with of hatred of all issues Putin on this nation, which is — international coverage disagreements are one factor, however it’s very private right here. And that’s not helpful. However anyway, the opposite — you recognize, I don’t assume there’s any likelihood that Putin needs to take over Europe. I don’t assume he needs to take — he needs to have Ukraine tamed, however he’s not serious about doing something extra. However that’s — I could also be in a minority about that.
Anyway, what occurred is, there was an train in June, and it was imagined to — the bombs have been put in there underneath the duvet of a NATO train. There have been lots of totally different international locations operating round with divers and blowing up issues. It was an train to go discover and chase mines. There by no means had been one earlier than. It truly was — whoever within the CIA or within the different companies that thought this up ought to get a bow, as a result of it was fairly ingenious. So, in that train, the divers went down, did what they have been educated to do. They’re superb. C4, a pair hundred — regardless of the weight is — bombs sufficient to explode most cities, most buildings in Washington, and perhaps some in New York. Anyway, they did their job.
However the president, on the final minute, hesitated, as a result of he was afraid blowing it up proper after the train would put the finger at us. After which he wished permission to do it anytime, and that triggered an unlimited bother within the workforce. The workforce was — you recognize, persons are subtle within the intelligence companies. I do know we’ve clichés about them. We see the flicks about them. And the underside line is, this made sense to them, blowing up a pipeline. Blowing up a pipeline owned by — it’s truly owned by a division of — Gazprom owns 51%. That’s the Russian oligarchs. Forty-nine p.c of the Nord Stream 1 are owned by 4 enterprise teams within the Western Europe who farm out the oil. Anyway, they noticed the risk as being legitimate. And in the event you wished to do it throughout an train, nicely, OK. However in September, late September, they obtained the phrase — you recognize, they fastened it so he might, however then they thought it was — I don’t know what they thought, however I don’t assume they thought, in late September, he would blow up the primary pipeline, Nord Stream 2, which is a brand new one which had been simply constructed. And it had been sanctioned. It had fuel in it. That’s why a lot leaked. Seven hundred fifty miles of methane fuel have been sitting in it. But it surely had been sanctioned by the German authorities.
And so, when he did that, right here’s what Biden did. And that is what I believe the last word level of the story, why so many individuals, even the intelligence neighborhood, are very troubled by it. What he did is he stated, “I’m in an enormous battle with Ukraine. It’s not wanting good. I need to ensure I get German and West European help. And I do know winter is coming, and if it’s going to be unhealthy, I don’t need the Germans to say, ’We’ve obtained to take a look at, as a result of we’re getting massacred. We’ll be massacred with no low-cost gas, and our financial system will go bonkers. We’re going to take a look at, and we’re going to open up the fuel line,’” which they might do. So he took away that possibility.
And what that had carried out, as, you recognize, America has been speaking about ever for the reason that first pipeline, Nord Stream 1, got here on-line in 2011, and it was — there have been years earlier than it was being constructed. This goes again to the Bush-Cheney years. And as you recognize, I did lots of reporting for The New Yorker on these individuals, on that exact gaggle. Anyway, at the moment, they started to speak concerning the risk — the specter of fuel, the specter of low-cost vitality for Europe, was at all times seen as a risk to make Europe be extra palatable or extra keen to commerce with Russia. We at all times wished to isolate Russia. This has been a theme of the final a long time. And —
JUAN GONZÁLEZ: Effectively, Sy, however can I ask you additionally — there are a number of individuals — clearly, you’ve gotten criticism at instances for a lot of of your exposés, however there are some people who find themselves saying that this specific exposé doesn’t have an entire lot of documentation, that it basically depends on one supply of — one inner supply, nameless supply of yours. How do you reply to these criticisms that that is a lot much less documented than earlier exposés of yours?
SEYMOUR HERSH: I’ll get to that, however let me end my thought, as a result of it’s a vital thought. The concern was Europe would go away, stroll away from the battle. Now what he’s carried out — and you need to elevate it up a bit of bit. There you go. There. Now what he’s carried out is he’s instructed Europe, “You’re second fee.” And I believe the results of this for the Europeans are going to be horrific. They actually — this has lower into the notion that they’ll rely completely on America, even in a disaster. And I believe it’s going to undercut NATO, which I at all times discovered to be supremely ineffective, however definitely that European international locations are going to be — I do know individuals which are paying 5 instances as a lot now for electrical energy. Persons are paying three or 4 instances extra for fuel. There’s not sufficient of it. It’s very costly. It’s colder now than it was within the fall. That they had a lightweight fall due to local weather change, if you wish to imagine it or not.
And anyway, I believe the results politically for us are huge. I believe the explanation that Biden and his individuals within the White Home have denied the story and proceed to disclaim it, and but accepted by a number of the press — my outdated newspaper, The New York Occasions, I don’t know why they’re not doing extra reporting on this, as an alternative of counting on a denial and strolling away from the story. Ditto for The Washington Submit. I believe the results politically for us in the long term, taking a look at even potential some international locations strolling out of NATO. If that’s what he thinks, that our being chilly is much less vital than him retaining a battle going that he’s not going to win, it strikes me.
As for the supply query, you recognize, I’ve been doing this so lengthy. I’m not bothered by the truth that the federal government assaults me and that my outdated newspaper, The New York Occasions, hasn’t written a phrase about it. I discover it form of — you recognize, that’s the place we’re. That’s why individuals like me are in Substack, a self-publishing factor. I don’t have to fret about censorship or second ideas. However I don’t speak about sources. I simply — you recognize, I’m fortunate. I’ve had, for 20 or 30 or 40 years, individuals inside who not solely are devoted to what they’re doing, but in addition aren’t afraid to be crucial of it. And so, that’s the sort of supply that, you recognize, reporters dream about. And I’ve had individuals like that for without end. And I nonetheless do.
And so, there’s been lots of criticism. One of many issues is — one of many issues — I’ll get to your level about criticism. One of many criticisms of the open-source individuals — you recognize, OSET, it’s a really large a part of the world now. There are people who monitored air site visitors and boat site visitors and all that, and there are some — two or three totally different teams have produced an announcement saying that not one of the issues they see tracks with my story. And I might say about that, in the event you’re within the intelligence neighborhood, you’ve been operating covert ops for years, and also you’re in Norway — we’re working very carefully with the Norwegians on this, who, by the way in which, have elevated their manufacturing of oil to Europe by double the revenue. It was — I don’t know the precise numbers, however it’s gone up a minimum of double, perhaps much more than that, two-and-a-half instances as a lot now, with out the pipeline. However definitely, the very first thing you take a look at is the right way to maintain open-source individuals, make them assume what occurred isn’t taking place. I imply, that’s so apparent to me, however to not them. And so —
AMY GOODMAN: Sy, I wished to go to what Ned Value stated on the State Division. Sam Husseini of the Institute for Public Accuracy questioned the State Division spokesperson about your reporting final week.
SAM HUSSEINI: I’m certain you’re conscious of the brand new report from Seymour Hersh, “How America Took Out The Nord Stream Pipeline,” and the White Home’s denial of any involvement. Given the longstanding U.S. opposition to the pipeline, Secretary Blinken’s calling its demise an incredible alternative, and Underneath Secretary of State Nuland’s saying that the U.S. officers have been happy with the destruction of the pipeline, and particularly the — Sweden’s secretive investigation, do you assume the U.S. authorities’s denial of involvement is credible?
NED PRICE: I completely do, and I repeat it right here. The rest?
SAM HUSSEINI: So, let me comply with up on that, if I would. Have you ever or anyone else on the State Division been in communication with German, Norwegian ambassadors or different allies or officers on this matter?
NED PRICE: On the matter of Nord Stream 2?
SAM HUSSEINI: On the matter of the most recent allegations, which give a reasonably — I imply, it’s one nameless supply —
NED PRICE: It’s — it’s — it’s —
SAM HUSSEINI: — however it’s a pretty detailed inside —
NED PRICE: It’s — it could not be — it could not be typical for us to interact allies and companions on one thing that’s utter and full nonsense and that needs to be rejected out of hand by anybody who’s taking a look at it by means of a — by means of an goal lens. Sure, go forward.
SAM HUSSEINI: Yet another facet on this. One of many allegations that Hersh makes is that it was taken off the CIA with a purpose to stop involvement, oversight as a covert operation. Did you learn the piece?
NED PRICE: I’m conversant in it.
SAM HUSSEINI: One in all his allegations is that it was taken off the CIA platform —
NED PRICE: However quite than let this propaganda get —
SAM HUSSEINI: No, no, this can be a very particular authorized —
NED PRICE: — be aired within the briefing room — however let —
SAM HUSSEINI: It is a authorized query I’m asking.
NED PRICE: Let me simply say it’s a elementary misunderstanding of oversight in our U.S. Congress. Past getting his info solely flawed, as he has earlier than in very high-profile methods, it’s a elementary misunderstanding to recommend that our intelligence neighborhood just isn’t topic to oversight. Anybody who writes that, something who writes something like that, shouldn’t be believed on —
SAM HUSSEINI: No, no, no. That’s not what he wrote.
NED PRICE: — any proven fact that she or he places ahead.
SAM HUSSEINI: No, no, no. He wrote that it was taken off of CIA and put underneath navy with a purpose to stop —
NED PRICE: Our navy can also be topic to rigorous oversight. Go forward.
SAM HUSSEINI: That’s my query. That’s my query.
NED PRICE: Sure. The reply is sure.
AMY GOODMAN: So, that’s Ned Value being questioned by Sam Husseini within the State Division press briefing room. Sy Hersh, I’m questioning in the event you can reply. You wrote an attention-grabbing follow-up at this time on Substack known as “Crap on the Wall.” Now, it’s not your phrases, truly. You’re truly quoting the White Home, after they — probably the most weird effort got here from Protection Division of Donald Rumsfeld, you write. “Twenty years in the past, Secretary Rumsfeld and Vice President Richard Cheney discarded the rule of regulation and customary decency of their efforts to stomp out Muslim terrorism. I used to be writing for The New Yorker.” You’re speaking concerning the Abu Ghraib scandal. “The White Home responded to an article I printed concerning the CIA’s secret operations” — oh, no, no — “inside Iran by calling it one other instance of Hersh throwing crap — that was the phrase utilized by an assistant secretary of protection — on a wall to see what sticks. Underneath Barack Obama,” you say, “a senior nationwide safety adviser responded, ‘Seymour Hersh is a recognized fabricator,’ including the journal, The New Yorker, might publish that response to any future Hersh story with out additional checking.” Your response to all of this?
SEYMOUR HERSH: Effectively, my long-gone mom, who got here right here as an immigrant and beloved America greater than anyone, notably about Ned Value’s stuff, she would have stated, “You need to have washed out his mouth with cleaning soap,” which is what she truly did to me a number of instances. So, anyway, that’s — what can I say? You recognize, generally — I gained’t say “reality.” That’s too — generally totally different variations of a narrative trigger issues.
The explanation I went into that form of soliloquy about what’s going to occur presumably in NATO and Europe about Biden’s act of claiming to the Western Europe and Germany, “We’d quite preserve our battle going, and you may keep chilly,” is I believe it might trigger some international locations to say, “We could also be out of right here. You recognize, what do we want NATO for, and American help, when, in a disaster, they take away our capacity to maintain our individuals heat?” It additionally could lead on — I believe the Inexperienced Occasion has carried out very nicely in Germany. The chancellor is from the Inexperienced Occasion. I believe it’s going to result in widespread conservative motion politically. The one factor we did after World Warfare II that was implausible was we rebuilt Europe into a contemporary democratic plurality, a society, plural society. I believe it might result in not — it gained’t go so far as it did in Italy. We might result in some conservative victories and subsequent legislations, as a result of Europe has at all times had no pure sources. They’ve at all times needed to depend on others. And the others included us and likewise Russian fuel. And if we need to cease that off, we do it at a political price.
And I believe the purpose I’m making is I’m nonetheless going to do extra reporting on this, as a result of there’s nonetheless issues I want to jot down about later. I believe that this has in all probability been, within the view of a number of the individuals who did it, one of many dumbest issues the American authorities has carried out in years — and we’ve had 4 years of Trump, you recognize. And in the long term, I simply don’t perceive why extra newspapers, good newspapers just like the Occasions, which remains to be — you recognize, I nonetheless learn The New York Occasions. I don’t imagine the whole lot they are saying about Ukraine, however it’s nonetheless — they’ve obtained fantastic reporters there. My perspective in the direction of editors is, if we removed 90% of the editors on the planet, we’d be significantly better off. However that’s at all times been — since I used to be a child reporter, I assumed that.
So, you recognize, I don’t care what they are saying. I imply, if I did, I might weep, as a result of a number of the stuff is so dumb. It’s simply so dumb. And the Biden administration placing Ned Value — he’s paid to work. I don’t fault him. He truly is aware of intelligence. He had a profession in intelligence. And from all I do know, he’s a wonderfully respectable — I do know people who know him personally, and he’s a high quality man. He’s simply being instructed what to say, and he says it. And if you —
JUAN GONZÁLEZ: And, Sy — Sy —
SEYMOUR HERSH: You’ve obtained to — let me simply say —
JUAN GONZÁLEZ: Yeah.
SEYMOUR HERSH: Let me simply say this. You’ve obtained to return to Secretary of State Tony Blinken. After the bombing in September, he made a speech through which he — it was a press convention through which he made a gratuitous assertion. He stated, “One good factor is that no extra will Russia be capable to weaponize fuel.” And the notion of Russia weaponizing fuel with Western Europe to get fame and to decrease our energy over or our authority or our financial capacity, management over Western Europe has been a theme of this nation for 20 years. It’s not a brand new theme. Oil scares the hell — Russian oil and fuel at all times scared the hell out of Washington. Now your query.
JUAN GONZÁLEZ: Yeah, and, Sy, lastly, the Norwegian authorities has claimed that one of many ships that you simply talked about in your article that was concerned within the planning of this or preparation of this was not current on the time of those workouts. What do you make of Norway’s denial?
SEYMOUR HERSH: You recognize, let me inform you one thing about Nicaragua, in the event you don’t know. One of many issues that occurred in Nicaragua, the CIA guys working there have been thrilled and get excited. There’s seashores there. And, you recognize, even within the worst of instances within the Sandinista motion, they’d go of their little motorboats off the seashores and shoot flechettes into the seashores and have a contest to see who — you recognize, I shouldn’t say the latter. They’d simply shoot flechettes and know there have been casualties. They’d simply do this and have lots of enjoyable speaking about it and bragging about it. I imply, that’s the sort of stuff you get into when you might have a covert operation.
And so, the Norwegian authorities, that’s simply fully — oh, I’m sorry. I dropped one thing right here. The federal government, not solely did that ship have a — was within the operation, it additionally had a compression chamber that had been flown in by the CIA. Now I’m moving into particulars I don’t need to trouble with. The CIA flew in a compression chamber that will get placed on the ship, as a result of it’s only a submarine hunter. And the divers had 260 ft. That’s the place they — that’s the extent. The Norwegians discovered the bottom degree, the shallowest a part of the Baltic Sea, which is off an island known as — it’s between Sweden and Denmark. And so they practiced there. They needed to. And for the divers, it was 260 ft deep the place the landmines have been. And the pipelines are steel-covered, however they’re additionally coated by concrete shields. So it’s a critical job to blow them up. And at 260, with out a compression chamber, they need to go up each 90 ft. They’re respiration — it’s superb to me. They’re respiration oxygen, nitrogen and helium. That’s fairly superb to me. And so they need to go as much as — now they might simply pop as much as the floor.
So, it was known as the Alta. The ship was there. I imply, that’s simply such a silly lie. However the mine — it’s a submarine hunter. They didn’t have to remain there. They may simply go, and the blokes might bounce off. And there was no lengthy restoration. At a sure time, they’d come up. And the time was fastened. You don’t drop explosives like that after which allow them to go off in 5 minutes. You give lots of time. You have got a timer on it in order that the divers might stand up to the highest. And so they come up, and so they make a pickup. It will possibly occur far more shortly than you assume, as a result of there may be — it’s not within the description of the ship, however on that ship there was a decompression chamber. It had been flown in and planted there, and by the CIA.
This was truly a superb operation, if you wish to comprehend it from the viewpoint of a basic operation, as a result of they obtained away with it. And at that time, the aim was at all times simply — let me return to this. The aim for doing it’s to make the risk credible. However then you might have the president and the underneath secretary of state, inside every week or two of getting a phrase that it’s credible, we are able to do it, cease blabbing about it — in fact, that was disillusioning to the individuals concerned, however so what? I can’t speak about — you recognize, you may say it’s not true, I invented it, however that’s simply — look, he did it. And he’s going to need to cop to it.
I watch my mail. I watch my Gmail, and I’m seeing day-after-day an increasing number of — greater than I need. I’m seeing extra messages from all over the world, totally different international locations streaming in. I’m seeing that. I’m seeing one thing that was — and, by the way in which, on Substack, it was — I didn’t learn about Substack. It’s an incredible platform. That they had greater than one million hits on the factor inside a day. I imply, individuals, what have been — the messages I obtained from individuals stated, “Thank God. We miss the sort of reporting that you simply and others have carried out. We don’t see it anymore.” I’m not speaking about your present, Amy. I assure you, not that.
AMY GOODMAN: Effectively, Seymour Hersh, we need to thanks a lot for being with us, the Pulitzer Prize-winning journalist. We’ll hyperlink to your new piece in your Substack, “How America Took Out The Nord Stream Pipeline.”
Developing, in 30 seconds, we go to Michigan, the place vigils have been held Tuesday night time to recollect the three slain Michigan State college students killed in one more mass taking pictures. Stick with us.
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