Former Oath Keeper Testifies That Trump Fueled Extremists’ Actions

REP. JAMIE RASKIN:In the days leading up to January 6, Stewart Rhodes publicly urged President Trump to invoke The Insurrection Act. This 1807 law allows the president to call in militias to end a rebellion against the United States. I’d like to know your thoughts about this, given your past relationship with Stewart Rhodes.

I believe you spoke with Rhodes about Insurrection Act. Why was he so obsessed with that? And what did it allow the Oathkeepers to do?

JASON VAN TATENHOVE:It gave him a sense that he was legitimate and that he could move forward with his goals.

I believe we should stop trying to make up words and just talk about the truths. It would be an armed revolution. People died that day. This is the day that law enforcement officers died. A gallows was set up in front the Capitol. This could have been a spark that ignited a new civil conflict, but no one would have won. This would have been a good thing for no one.

He was always looking for ways to legitimize what he was doing, whether by wrapping it in the trappings of “it’s not a militia, it’s a community preparedness team,” “we’re not a militia, we’re an educational outreach group,” “it’s a veterans’ support group.”

But, again, we’ve got to stop with this, this dishonesty and the mincing of words, and just call things for what they are. You know, he’s a militia leader. He had these grand visions about becoming a paramilitary commander. The Insurrection Act would have provided him with a way forward.

The fact that the president was communicating directly or indirectly via messaging gave him the nod. I can only thank the gods that it didn’t get any worse that day.

REP. JAMIE RASKIN:What did the Oathkeepers see in President Trump

JASON VAN TATENHOVE:They saw a way forward that would have legitimacy. They saw the opportunity to be a paramilitary force.

REP. JAMIE RASKIN:The Department of Justice stated last week that it had evidence of Oath Keepers bringing explosives and firearms to Washington in advance of January 6th. The committee also learned from Stewart Rhodes that he stopped to purchase weapons on his way into Washington and shipped around $7,000 worth of tactical equipment to a January 6 rally organizer in Virginia. Rhodes has spoken out about the possibility of violence against elected politicians.

JASON VAN TATENHOVE:Yes, that was right. It was part of my tenure from the beginning. He wanted me to be more of a graphic designer function and one of my first assignments was to create a deck. You may remember back to the conflict in the Middle East where our own military created a deck of cards, which was a who’s who of kind of the key players on the other side that they wanted to take out. Stewart was intrigued by this idea and was influenced by it. He wanted me to create a deck that included different politicians, judges, and even Hillary Clinton as the queen-of-hearts. I refused to take on this project.

We saw this right from the beginning. There was always the push for military training, including there were — there were courses in that community that went over explosives training. All of this is in line.

REP. JAMIE RASKIN:In your thoughtful and insightful written testimony, Mr. Van Tatenhove, he said that he fears what the next election cycle would bring. You also said that we have been extremely lucky in that we haven’t seen more bloodshed. I wonder if your explanations of these two statements would be helpful.

JASON VAN TATENHOVE: I think, as far as the luck goes, we’ve had the potential from Bundy Ranch on. I mean, being boots on the ground at these — these standoffs — and they were standoffs, where there were firearms pointed across lines at federal law enforcement agencies, you know, whatever it may be with that particular standoff. But I do — I think we’ve gotten exceedingly lucky that more bloodshed did not happen, because the potential has been there from the start. And we got very lucky that the loss of life was — and as tragic as it is that we saw on January 6th, the potential was so much more. All we need to see is the iconic images from that day, including the gallows set-up for Mike Pence, the vice president of United States.

I worry about the next election cycle, as who knows what it may bring. If a president that’s willing to try to instill and encourage, to whip up a civil war amongst his followers using lies and deceit and snake oil, and regardless of the human impact, what else is he going to do if he gets elected again? All bets are off at this point. And that’s a scary notion. I have three children; I also have a granddaughter. I fear for the future of the world if they don’t start to hold these people accountable.

REP. JAMIE RASKIN: Thank you for your testimony, Mr. Van Tatenhove.

I want to first ask Mr. Ayres about the circumstances that caused you to leave on January 6th. We know that the medieval-style clash with our police, occupation of the building, and this continued for several hours, until the president sent a tweet at 4:17, I believe, which included a video encouraging people to go home. Did you see that? Did you notice that?

STEPHEN AYRES:When we were there, everyone started talking about the event as soon as it was announced. And that’s — it seemed like it started to disperse, you know, some of the crowd, obviously. We returned to our hotel room and saw that the crowd had dispersed.

REP. JAMIE RASKIN:Did you leave at that moment?

STEPHEN AYRES:Yes, we did. We left.

REP. JAMIE RASKIN:In other words, that was when you decided to leave. That was when President Trump said to everyone to go home.

STEPHEN AYRES: Yeah, yeah. We left right after that came out.

REP. JAMIE RASKIN: You were not a member of an organized group like the Oath Keepers or the Proud Boys, as most of the crowd wasn’t. I wonder if you felt that far-right groups like the Oath Keepers, Proud Boys, and Three Percenters were on your side on January 6th. You had reservations about marching and rallying alongside them.

STEPHEN AYRES: Well, I definitely didn’t have a problem, you know. I was probably following them online. You know, I liked — I thought, you know, “Hey, they’re on our team. Good.” That’s how I kind of looked at it at the time, you know, like I didn’t have a problem with it. It was a positive thing.

REP. JAMIE RASKIN: I’m interested in hearing about what’s happened to you since the events of January 6th. You told the vice chair that you no longer believe Trump’s big lie about the election, but that’s what brought you originally to Washington. How do you look back at the day and reflect on the role you played in the crowd? What is happening in your life now?

STEPHEN AYRES:I lost my job. I sold my house pretty much immediately after this. Everything that happened with the charges was dismissed. But I was there at the same moment. So, I mean, it definitely — it changed my life, you know, and not for the good. Definitely not for the — you know, for the better. Yeah, I mean, that’s really all I could say.

REP. JAMIE RASKIN:Trump is still spreading the big lie about his election. How does this make you feel?

STEPHEN AYRES:It drives me crazy, because I was hung on every word he said. I was following everything he was saying. It’s like if I was doing it, hundreds or even millions of people were doing it. It’s like he just said about that, you know, you got people still following and doing that. It’s hard to predict what the next election will bring. They might end up on the same road as us. I mean, just don’t know.

REP. JAMIE RASKIN:I am pleased to inform you, Mr. Ayres that your wife has come along today. Welcome to Washington. We are sorry for the pain you and your family have endured. What lessons do you think the American people should learn from the experiences you and your family have had as a result?

STEPHEN AYRES:The most important thing about me is that I consider myself a family man and that I love my country. I don’t think any one man is bigger than either one of those. I think that’s what needed to be taken, you know. People get into politics. For me, it was like I had on horse blinders. I was — I was locked in the whole time. Biggest thing for me is take the blinders off, make sure you step back and see what’s going on, before it’s too late.